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Value Price ... what should it be

  • 1.  Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:03
    ​​I realize this is a loaded question and there may be a variety of responses, but I'm curious as to what you might suggest charging for a script.  I tend to jump to a flat fee based on my own time estimate (client sees flat fee only), but I realize that flat fee is not value.

    Work request -- every time a sales order is created for customer ABC, I want a Header comment added that says "Check with Joe in Shipping" or something as basic as that.

    What would you charge?  Clearly, the work takes longer to connect to the client server than it would be to write the script (or pretty quick).  Yes, we're fast because we have the experience. 

    The true value-billers would say what is it worth to the customer?  Can't really answer that, since it's not a person in decision making power who could really say.

    So … what would you value bill for this?

    ------------------------------
    Robert White
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:13
    Thoughts.

    Change scope and add UDT with customer number and header comment.

    Script - Based on the customer number auto populate header comment from UDT, if applicable.

    1. Client can control the comment (Joe leaves, so now it's Wayne). 
    2. Not limited to a single customer.

    Value: $850.00



    Myron Stevenson, Consultant
    Clearis Consulting, Inc.
    direct phone: 218.525-6720
    1420 Morningside Ave, Duluth, MN 55803
    Myron@clearisconsulting.com

    Clearis Consulting is part of the DSD Business Systems Partner Network
    http://www.dsdinc.com/contact/our-offices/minnesota/mn-duluth-minnesota/



    ------Original Message------

    ​​I realize this is a loaded question and there may be a variety of responses, but I'm curious as to what you might suggest charging for a script.  I tend to jump to a flat fee based on my own time estimate (client sees flat fee only), but I realize that flat fee is not value.

    Work request -- every time a sales order is created for customer ABC, I want a Header comment added that says "Check with Joe in Shipping" or something as basic as that.

    What would you charge?  Clearly, the work takes longer to connect to the client server than it would be to write the script (or pretty quick).  Yes, we're fast because we have the experience. 

    The true value-billers would say what is it worth to the customer?  Can't really answer that, since it's not a person in decision making power who could really say.

    So … what would you value bill for this?

    ------------------------------
    Robert White
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------


  • 3.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:22
    (I'd go with a customer UDF, which makes the script lookup use an existing object, with script permissions easier to deal with).

    I have this question too.  Not just for scripts.  Any small-ish project.  A custom report, script, customization... 

    My brain goes to "how long will it take me" instead of what kind of value this might provide to the customer.  Trying to get accurate functional details from a customer is often difficult enough, let alone trying to get them to communicate how much pain they hope to solve with the request.

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Moyes
    Technical Systems Analyst
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:26
    Thank you @MyronStevenson.  I'm not sure I would stick with my original work request either; I initially gave the client another option of copying the Customer Maintenance comment to the SO Entry Comment (which was their original request), but then I asked myself whether that's really a good idea if there are comments that are in Customer Maintenance now and don't want it on the SO.  Rather than the UDT idea you suggested, I'd probably add a UDF to customer maintenance and have that flow to SO Header comment.  We're on the same page, though.

    My real question, though, is what is the value of this simple work?  $850 is the first idea.  Thank you!​​

    ------------------------------
    Robert White
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:33
    I'd go customer UDF as well. Much easier and more reliable than scripting. Doesn't reduce the value either.

    ------------------------------
    Myron Stevenson
    Consultant
    Clearis Consulting, Inc
    Duluth, MN
    218-525-6720
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:47
    Kind of off topic, but does the comment need to be in Sage 100 or just on the printed sales order?  Just checking on the even simpler possibility of modifying the SO form.

    ------------------------------
    ==================
    Rhonda McNamara
    Customer Success Manager
    Stewart Technologies, Inc.
    rsm@stewarttechnologies.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 16:49
    Excellent point @RhondaMcNamara.  I'll probably mention that to the customer in general discussion.  But … what is your sense of the value ($) of doing this or something equally easy?​​

    ------------------------------
    Robert White
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 17:01

    Well, I think Ed Kless would ask how much it's worth to Mr. Customer.  What happens when he doesn't have it?  What's the cost of that happening, etc.  As long as it's more than the least you'll sell it for and less than the most he'll pay for it, keeping in mind that if you price it too low, he questions the value...queue the slide, Ed!  It was a slide with four boxes...german theorist. 

     

    Rhonda McNamara

    Stewart Technologies, Inc.

    410-309-9550 x-108

     



    ------Original Message------

    Excellent point @RhondaMcNamara.  I'll probably mention that to the customer in general discussion.  But … what is your sense of the value ($) of doing this or something equally easy?​​

    ------------------------------
    Robert White
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------


  • 9.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 17:13
    These are the million $ questions:
    "What happens when he doesn't have it?  What's the cost of that happening, etc. "
    How do you get them answered!?!?!?!

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Moyes
    Technical Systems Analyst
    Munjal White Consulting Co.
    Toronto ON
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-20-2019 12:33

    A common question I ask the client is "what problem are we trying to solve?". This can lead you down a trail of issues far beyond the stated one, which helps you get a sense of the value proposition to solve the "problem".

     

     

    DSD Email Signature

     

     



    ------Original Message------

    Well, I think Ed Kless would ask how much it's worth to Mr. Customer.  What happens when he doesn't have it?  What's the cost of that happening, etc.  As long as it's more than the least you'll sell it for and less than the most he'll pay for it, keeping in mind that if you price it too low, he questions the value...queue the slide, Ed!  It was a slide with four boxes...german theorist. 

     

    Rhonda McNamara

    Stewart Technologies, Inc.

    410-309-9550 x-108

     





  • 11.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 17:41
    I'd think about having a minimum fee for scripts. You pick the number. 

    Then I'd offer: 

    1. Create the script - offer 3 days approval - all changes after that subject to an additional fee - $800

    2. Create the script - offer 10 days approval - all changes after that subject to an additional fee - $ 1,200

    3. Create the script - offer 90-day approval - plus up to 3 changes - all changes after that subject to an additional fee - $ 1,800


    ------------------------------
    Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-19-2019 20:52
    ​I've always believed that a custom script, custom report, or custom office project starts at $750 and the final quote is subject to a detailed scope analysis and SOW. The $750 originally was just what I chose, but rarely ends at that amount. So when the customer asks why or comments that it seems like a simple request, I remind them that our conversation to discuss the need, us expanding on the request and considering the approach and documenting that, and their approving it before any work has started is at least $750. Eventually they start understanding that if they are not prepared to spend at least $750 or do not see value at that amount, they should probably not bring it up. I don't want that, because the other side of the equation is the true value to them, which they may not know or know how to determine it. The point is that there are no customizations that are just an hour or a couple hundred dollars.

    ------------------------------
    John Hoyt
    john.hoyt@formingsolutions.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-20-2019 01:40
    I second Wayne's 3-level proposal structure and John's addition to it. 

    If you think back to any of your custom work, whether scripts, reports, or UDFs, I think you'll agree that your firm's time is, on average, spent roughly equally in three buckets: solution definition (whether formal or not), executing the technical work, and then the installation/support/tweaks/changes. 

    So if you want to start from a "cost" side, take your estimated time to execute the tech work and triple it. Maybe make that your bottom rung (or lower!) 

    If you think about your past this way, you'll realize that you can never get away from even a simple mod on less than 2-3 hours IF you factor in the initial calls, the questions, the installations, the questions afterward, and details y'all missed in how it would be used. So a minimum price of $500-$750 for the simplest of the simplest is a good start.

    When you tell a customer, "we can't touch a simple script for less than $500 (or $750)", it communicates an important piece of value information to them right there. Then you have their attention and you can get a decent q&a going about what the problem is and why they want to solve it. 

    At the end of that <g class="gr_ gr_946 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="946" data-gr-id="946">q&a</g> you can probably come with 2-3 approaches to solving the underlying problem. Or maybe the scripting is the only way. If you have different approaches (script vs UDF?) make each an option in your proposal. This also requires the customer to understand the differences and the implications for them; you *must* verbally walk them through this, and it *must* be written, even if only an outline. 

    Wayne's outline has at least 2 elements that I've also found quite effective: enforceable response times which increase with the price, and a roughly 3x price for the top choice compared to the basic one. (But do NOT just split the difference for the middle one.)

    For me, the hardest part of value pricing was forcing myself to come up with the 3 options and the paragraph that outlines the WHY for the customer (fewer errors, faster response, lower cost, etc.). I have learned that if I don't include at least a simple claim of why the customer wants to make this change, it's much harder to get the proposal accepted. Be sure there is an explicit signature acceptance on this proposal for all but your most trusted customers.

    One last thing. For any customization work, it is prepaid with satisfaction guaranteed. If they trigger a response penalty, the work stops until the penalty is paid, You will only have to do this once for each customer.

    ------------------------------
    Jerry Norman
    Smartbridge Partners
    Austin TX
    5124191444x112
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 03-22-2019 14:15
      |   view attached
    A little humor for those having a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept....

    ------------------------------
    Phil McIntosh
    President
    Friendly Systems, Inc.
    Asheville NC
    678.273.4010 ext 5
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-03-2019 13:42
    This is a great discussion. One aspect of selling value that needs to be considered is "who are you talking to". Are they a
    •  Cost Center Manager,
    •  Profit Center Manager,
    •  or Both? 
    Each person values VALUE differently and it comes down to "how the person is measured" at their company.

    There are some great discussion points on asking questions to better understand the VALUE of a script or any other customer request for that matter and the point is that we all need to "diagnose" before we "prescribe". Let's face it when a client asks for additional services work our first thoughts always seems to be how hard will this be and how long with this take? Often, we don't even think about defining value, after all, the client requested the project, it must be of value.

    We only seem to think about value after we've presented a price and the client says, "jeez, that seems a little high for such a simple request". At this point, since we don't know what the value is to the client, we're back tracking and trying to justify our cost versus directing the client to the value they'll receive and @John Hoyt had some great selling points on justifying our costs.

    I don't understand the concept or the value to the customer of having to pay more if it takes longer for the customer to make a decision @Wayne Schultz. I'm not in the same trenches that you guys are in. That being said offering 3 different prices would mean that there are 3 different value measures that will impact the customer's decision and therefore, like @JerryNorman says, it's not as simple as just splitting the difference and taking the middle option…if customers choose lesser priced options the customer should experience measurable reductions in value.

    As to the original question that @RobertWhite asked, How much to price a script, I have no idea. Ed Kless' pricing of more than the least you'll sell it for and less than the most the customer will pay is a good concept. It's like defining the win-win range in a negotiation, you only know your side of the range so defining customer value at the very beginning is a must. If you're not going to price on value and price on your cost, then you establish the least you'll do the work for, guess at how much it's worth to the client, price it and develop a negotiation concession strategy to close the business.

    ------------------------------
    Bob Tobey
    I-Business Network, Cloud Channel Manager
    I-Business Network, LLC
    Marietta GA
    678-627-0646 x231
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-03-2019 14:19
    Bob mentions "how a person is valued at the company." My experience is that this is far too theoretical.

    When presented with 3 options, a customer flips into a mode comparing how the 3 are different. Assuming that the lowest option doesn't seem to be non-competitive, they essentially look for features that either they know they won't need or appreciate, and those that would make the "product" easier and lower-stress. 

    To help make the acceptance of the lowest option easier, I always include at least a short paragraph at the top outlining the rough costs/benefits of doing the product. I've learned to *tell a story* of the "why," not obsess over the ROI. Make it easy for them to explain to their boss why they should do this and why this option is the best out of the three. 

    It's a very non-linear process. It takes some practice and "letting go" to think about the buyer's process in this.

    ------------------------------
    Jerry Norman
    Smartbridge Partners
    Austin TX
    5124191444x112
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-03-2019 15:13
    Edited by Bob Tobey 04-03-2019 15:19
    It's not "how a person is valued at the company", it's "how they are measured".  I'm measured on sales, it's definable and measurable.  Accountants are measured on different tasks they do, again, definable and measurable.  Sales is measured on profit and accounting on costs.  Owners and managers maybe measured on both profit and cost.  Interestingly, some Purchasing Managers are measured on both!

    We're saying the same thing regarding 3 different prices.  3 differently priced packages have 3 sets of value deliverables.  

    We haven't talked about the presentation look or format of a quote but Jerry is absolutely correct.  Quotes and proposals need to be formatted in such a way that a buying influencer can hand it to the decision maker and the decision maker can understand and see the value...even if you're dealing with the decision maker!!!  Decision makers get confused, they don't remember, competitors gum up the works, things change, etc.  The quotes that are formatted within most ERP systems have a description, an amount and a price and don't do anything to sell value and that's why it's extremely important, at least in my mind, to make a proposal or if you're going to use the quoting system, "customerize" the quote. 

    How you format and present it is up to each individual.  I like a list of outcomes as a result of the project or here's the value you'll get, i.e. This project will lower costs by...  or This project will increase revenue through...  or This project will lower cost and increase revenue by...  an Executive Summary.  Then comes the price and then comes the deliverables.  Some people put the price last but it's been my experience that when you go through and present the proposal and then leave the price for last, there's no place to go when the customer says, "Wow, that seems like a lot for such a simple request." other than having the customer to go back to page 1 because obviously they didn't get or understand the value you've laid out!   It's a lot easier to get the price shock over 1st and say, hang on, let me show you everything you get with that price.  This gives you a chance to sell the value.

    ------------------------------
    Bob Tobey
    I-Business Network, Cloud Channel Manager
    I-Business Network, LLC
    Marietta GA
    678-627-0646 x231
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-04-2019 01:00
    One of the best questions I learned, maybe at MOTF, and we use frequently, is "what is my budget"?  Notice it is not, "what is your budget" which may evoke defensiveness.  In other words, ask the client what is the price (range) they are willing to pay us to solve their problem.

    ------------------------------
    Bob Pfahnl
    DSD Business Systems
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-04-2019 09:15
    Edited by Bob Tobey 04-04-2019 10:21
    Speaking of budget, everybody needs to change thier mindset.  Consider the budget as the "least" amount a customer is willing to spend, not the most.  Customers already have an amount that they are willing to spend but they always are able to find the money if it's something they really want and value.  This is why it's important to go on a value hunt in the beginning of a project.

    ------------------------------
    Bob Tobey
    I-Business Network, Cloud Channel Manager
    I-Business Network, LLC
    Marietta GA
    678-627-0646 x231
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-04-2019 10:22

    Save yourselves some heartache and start immediately with "our minimum price for ______ is $ xxx.xx, should we keep discussing this? ".

    I've spent FAR too much time early in my career doing all sorts of free time-consuming analysis and pricing charts only to sit with a prospect/customer and have them faint because they imagined the price would be $10 and I was closer to $1,000. This was especially true with upgrades where I stopped cold turkey doing any type of review and analysis to come up with a price. We were spending 4 to 8 hours working up quotes and customers deferred repeatedly. 


    TL;DR: Until there is a $$ attached to a project the customer/prospect green lights all your advance analysis leading up to a price ( which they may not even be interested in).

    • NO: "Sure we will work up a price for an upgrade."  Then go online and spend 4 hours reviewing the customer system. The customer sits on the quote for a year and then .... wait for it ..... wait for it ..... WE  GO ONLINE WITH THEM AGAIN TO FRESHEN UP THE QUOTE .... for FREE AGAIN.
    • YES: Cut to the chase - give the customer/prospect an idea right up front of what the range of cost will start at. If it's too complex tell them a paid assessment is needed and you have a fixed price for that of $ Y.
    • YES Add  STARTS AT to your vocabulary
    • YES: Come up with some basic fixed price start at points for those things customers ask for again and again
      • The minimum fee for a Crystal Report starts at $1 - should we continue? 
      • The minimum fee for an upgrade starts at $ x<g class="gr_ gr_1976 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Style replaceWithoutSep" id="1976" data-gr-id="1976">,xxx</g> - should we continue? 
      • On-site we charge $ x for up to 1/2 day or $ Y for up to a full day


    ------------------------------
    Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-04-2019 11:27
    I agree with Wayne. One of the first things we do is to disqualify ourselves on price. If they don't want to continue the discussion once we give a base price, which only goes up, then we are out of the conversation. The earlier the better.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Lloyd Smith
    Mindover Software
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-04-2019 11:31
    Sounds like we should add "should we continue" to our vocabulary too.

    ------------------------------
    Bob Tobey
    I-Business Network, Cloud Channel Manager
    I-Business Network, LLC
    Marietta GA
    678-627-0646 x231
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-05-2019 00:10
    Some more thoughts about this issue. 

    1) Again, the customer will assign a value that they subjectively assign to it. You can nudge it along, but mainly you create the proposal, no matter how formal or informal, to help them discover that value. 

    2) Pricing pro's call that lowest price of the 3 choices an "anchor price." We call it a minimum price. Put that price firmly in your understanding of the budget, and then the two other options give the customer an opportunity to go above his "budget." And as Bob said, budgets are always flexible if the desire is high enough. so have an anchor price for the usual asks, as Wayne outlined.

    3) Be very clear about what is in that this anchor option. It means only:
    • work only during business hours, even if that puts the customer down.
    • a single review of <g class="gr_ gr_1864 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="1864" data-gr-id="1864">draft</g> report, within 2 days. If they can't get it right in that time, they pay a predefined fee for another round
    • no upgrade testing: it is "one and done."
    • any training is minimal and its individual objectives are clear ("using <g class="gr_ gr_1430 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar only-ins doubleReplace replaceWithoutSep" id="1430" data-gr-id="1430">paperless</g> office for email"). don't define in # of hours, but <g class="gr_ gr_1835 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar only-ins doubleReplace replaceWithoutSep" id="1835" data-gr-id="1835">number</g> of <g class="gr_ gr_1729 gr-alert gr_spell gr_inline_cards gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="1729" data-gr-id="1729">sessons</g>.
    • NO onsite work
    • In other words, you specify the customer behavior you need for this to be a very, simple, easy project. If they can meet that behavior, great. If they can't they need to choose another option.
    4) Put the proposal date in the header. Boilerplate on the foot includes "quote good for 30 days from the date at the top." A requote will be higher; tell them that "I quoted that price when we had slack resources; we don't <g class="gr_ gr_2672 gr-alert gr_spell gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim ContextualSpelling ins-del" id="2672" data-gr-id="2672">now</g>." (True or not.)

    5) ALL work is prepaid. If you need to research to do the quote (say, an upgrade), charge a modest ($300-$500) for the work, and apply that against the price of the project they select. Of course, if you do this, you give them the assessment and they have the option to shop it. If this is not a customer you have an ongoing relationship with, then include a verbal quote in that fee. In other words, outline the 3 options and what is in them, walk them through it and see if they will choose then. If so, tell them you'll send the SOW when they pay. Something like that. The point is to get them involved with the way you think about the upgrade, get them to pay you for something first, and rest generally works out because you've developed trust, they have invested emotional capital in your relationship, and now all competitors seem somewhat <g class="gr_ gr_4631 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar multiReplace" id="4631" data-gr-id="4631">more risky</g> than you. 

    6) Kless makes a big deal out of money-back guarantees. I regularly offer them on small projects, and on upgrades. I don't really on new projects. You're asking them to pay in advance, so you must make them understand that you will refund if you really screw up. 


    ------------------------------
    Jerry Norman
    Smartbridge Partners
    Austin TX
    5124191444x112
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Value Price ... what should it be

    Posted 04-05-2019 11:34
    Some more thoughts about this issue. 

    1) Again, the customer will assign a value that they subjectively assign to it. You can nudge it along, but mainly you create the proposal, no matter how formal or informal, to help them discover that value. 

    2) Pricing pro's call that lowest price of the 3 choices an "anchor price." We call it a minimum price. Put that price firmly in your understanding of the budget, and then the two other options give the customer an opportunity to go above his "budget." And as Bob said, budgets are always flexible if the desire is high enough. so have an anchor price for the usual asks, as Wayne outlined.

    3) Be very clear about what is in that this anchor option. It means only:
    • work only during business hours, even if that puts the customer down.
    • a single review of draft report, within 2 days. If they can't get it right in that time, they pay a predefined fee for another round
    • no upgrade testing: it is "one and done."
    • any training is minimal and its individual objectives are clear ("using paperless office for email"). don't define in # of hours, but number of sessons.
    • NO onsite work
    • In other words, you specify the customer behavior you need for this to be a very, simple, easy project. If they can meet that behavior, great. If they can't they need to choose another option.
    4) Put the proposal date in the header. Boilerplate on the foot includes "quote good for 30 days from the date at the top." A requote will be higher; tell them that "I quoted that price when we had slack resources; we don't now." (True or not.)

    5) ALL work is prepaid. If you need to research to do the quote (say, an upgrade), charge a modest ($300-$500) for the work, and apply that against the price of the project they select. Of course, if you do this, you give them the assessment and they have the option to shop it. If this is not a customer you have an ongoing relationship with, then include a verbal quote in that fee. In other words, outline the 3 options and what is in them, walk them through it and see if they will choose then. If so, tell them you'll send the SOW when they pay. Something like that. The point is to get them involved with the way you think about the upgrade, get them to pay you for something first, and rest generally works out because you've developed trust, they have invested emotional capital in your relationship, and now all competitors seem somewhat more risky than you. 

    6) Kless makes a big deal out of money-back guarantees. I regularly offer them on small projects, and on upgrades. I don't really on new projects. You're asking them to pay in advance, so you must make them understand that you will refund if you really screw up. 


    ------------------------------
    Jerry Norman
    Smartbridge Partners
    Austin TX
    5124191444x112
    ------------------------------