General Consultant Discussion

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  • 1.  Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-01-2023 17:20
    Isn't it typical that the break even point when comparing total costs of perpetual vs subscription is around year 4 or 5? It's around this time that the total subscription cost surpasses the cost if purchased outright with a smaller yearly maintenance fee?

    Our client got a quote for a Sage 100 solution that was originally quoted as perpetual at $23K upfront with $6K yearly maintenance. The sale rep said they're moving to subscription and re-quoted the exact same system, now $20K annually - essentially repurchasing the entire system each year. After 5 years that's a total cost of $54K (perpetual) vs $104K (subscription). This seems a bit out of line. Just wondering if this is normal?

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    Bill Pfahnl
    Nims & Associates
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  • 2.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 08:10
    Edited by Gary Feldman 02-02-2023 08:13
    Wow!

    The breakeven point has been a moving target since the inception of subscription.  When it first started 2-3 years was common and it crept up to 7 years as the VC's were willing to wait longer for the company to breakeven and were more focused on YOY growth.  

     The software companies are smart and
    • Initial subscription contracts rarely go beyond a 3 years
    • ROI comparisons are typically 3-5 year analysis
    • Economic changes and conditions have created more pressure from VC and PE firms to shorten payback
    • Perpetual license options have been decreasing
    • Popularity of cloud subscriptions leads to expectations of subscription
    • Less deep discounting by publishers on initial subscriptions
    I sense (without hard evidence) that over the past few years the breakeven crept down closer to 5. 

    In your situation,
    • Do you know who the competition is and their approximate subscription costs?
    • In the past, the Sage 100 alternative used to have a price advantage which overcame "legacy" concerns. I hate to compete on price, but cost is always a factor.  For this client are you competing on price? 
    • Did you provide the original lower quote to the prospect?  Do they know of the price increase?
    In other words, do you have the ammunition to go to the rep and say "Come on man!", or do you have the ability to "take the money and run"?

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    Gary Feldman
    I-Business Network, LLC
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  • 3.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 09:40
    Gary is right. I have a few more thoughts on this regarding Sage 100.

    1. When Sage first introduced subscriptions for Sage 100, they offered discounts and a promise not to increase the subscription by more than 10%/yr. They made no such promise for perpetual maintenance. For quite a while, they kept subscription increases to 3%. For those on maintenance, the difference became obvious quickly. 

    2. After getting a large majority of customers to convert, they began dropping those incentives. Why? Well, most alternatives to Sage 100 customers were significantly more expensive, and all those are subscription-based.

    3. Except for MS compatibility issues, perpetual customers got now improvements in an upgrade. But, if you're a customer who wasn't on maintenance or never upgraded, this was not a feature with any value.

    4. I've referred to Sage's renewal fees as "the Sage tax" for more than a few years after customers ask, "Why?" It's just unavoidable if you have anything more than a simple GLAPR system with a small number of customers and vendors.  So the question for the customer should be, "How can I make the most of this required annual cost and turn it into an investment instead?" As you know, there are now many, many more ways to get more from the Sage base than there were 15 years ago.  

    5. If the customer had dropped maintenance long ago, this expense is a shock. Well, if you sold your house 15 years ago, moved from CA to OK to live with your aging parents, and then moved back to CA now, housing would be a shock, right? But what are you going to do if you want to live there? The same choices are on the table as with their Sage situation: stay in OK (keep your Sage 100 as it is now), move to a location in CA with the right environment for you to make the most of living there (start a subscription and actively investigate the ways to make Sage 100 work harder for you), or move on to a state better suited to your needs (move from Sage 100 to something else),

    Other 90 Minders have laid this out for us here before. Basically, the software publishers have been doing what they thought they needed to survive. Many Sage 100 customers were not paying attention, and now something has changed for them, so they must deal with today's reality. The reality is that Sage 100 costs more than it did, and major alternatives (Acumatica, Intacct, Microsoft, SAP B1) all cost *more.* Usually significantly more. 

    You should pitch a prepaid project to them to manage their search and analysis for the right way forward from here. They probably won't bite because that thinking is also what got them in this ditch. You have more profitable (financially and psychically) customers to spend time on.

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    Jerry Norman
    Smartbridge Partners
    (512) 653-7498
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  • 4.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 10:01
    I'm seeing a 10% increase this year for my Sage 100 customers on subscription.
    I've had very few/none left on perpetual.

    I don't deal with or spend more than 10 minutes with users who want to "chew the fat" about how they haven't paid maintenance in 20 years.
    In the next breath, they want to talk - usually on the phone for an extended period of time - about my rates to support them.

    Spoiler: If they haven't paid software maintenance for 20 years, the odds that they will pay anything except what they think they should have paid hourly back in 2002 are slim and none.

    PS - There's also a gotcha for any customer who has migration credits and is on Standard or Advanced but wants to migrate to Premium.
    Sage now takes all those migration credits should the customer migrate to Premium. This can result in a materially higher subscription price for Premium.

    Previously there was no change in the credits when the customer platform changed.

    I am confident that Sage will kill all their golden egg-laying geese within the next 5 years.

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    Wayne Schulz
    wayne@s-consult.com
    Schulz Consulting
    (860) 516-8990
    Moodus, CT
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  • 5.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 10:06
    I just had one of those migration credit issues.  A 25 year Sage 100 end user wanted to move to premium.  The Sage quote was 3 times the annual amount they are paying now.  The customer said no thanks, we'll have to live without the benefit of SQL because I'm not paying triple the amount.  The policy leaves a negative impression.

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    Doug Higgs
    Midwest Commerce Solutions, Inc
    (312) 315-0960
    Chauffeur, Chef, and Personal Assistant to Sprinkles
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  • 6.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 09:11
    Is it out of line? Yes
    Why? Because they can

    Customers must think deeply about ROI and consider their 3 to 5-year cost should discounts or other incentives be included in the early years.

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    Wayne Schulz
    wayne@s-consult.com
    Schulz Consulting
    (860) 516-8990
    Moodus, CT
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  • 7.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 09:47
    @Bill Pfahnl Can you share the details of Sage 100 system that was quoted?  This doesn't sound right at all.  Sage has increased the price of perpetual every year for as long as I can remember, and what used to be around 42 months at breakeven has crept up to about 60 months at breakeven.  At least, that has been my experience.​

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    Brian Kelly
    Accounting Systems, Inc. (ASI)
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  • 8.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 09:53
    I'm curious also.  I had thought buying Perpetual would be significantly more expensive; still.

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    Madeline Stefanou
    RKL eSolutions, LLC
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  • 9.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 10:13
    Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought Bill was talking about an add-on to Sage 100, not Sage 100 perpetual itself.
    So far as I'm aware ( and I could be wrong ), you can't buy perpetual any longer from Sage.

    Also, in my experience, different publishers have different definitions of perpetual. There are some add-ons which were sold as perpetual yet they required updating keys annually to remain active.

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    Wayne Schulz
    wayne@s-consult.com
    Schulz Consulting
    (860) 516-8990
    Moodus, CT
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  • 10.  RE: Subscription vs. Pepetual Question - Comparing Total Costs

    Posted 02-02-2023 13:14
    Yes. This is an add-on, not Sage 100 itself. I won't name the company but they are an affiliate to 90 Minds and most likely some others of you will be affected. They are being great about it and will honor the original perpetual option proposal they presented. The sales consultant promised to send feedback to management. My concern is this makes the solution (a great solution, btw) out-of-reach for most customers looking to add this functionality going forward. Yes, there are alternate developers with similar functionality but I'd rather work with this one. My question was more of a general one to make sure it wasn't just me who thought this seemed excessive. Thanks all, for the feedback.

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    Bill Pfahnl
    Nims & Associates
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