Sage 100

MAS 200 SQL - Oh, how AWESOME! The same problem we currently have with running 200 as a service vs an application when there are lots of users - is still a problem in 200 SQL! They didn't bother fixing it. And that question that asks if it's going to run via TS and then fails to copy the activate.pvx file - still happens. WTF. What a waste. MAS200 IT Nerd version - that's all this is.

2 words... Database Scrape...

Doug says they've had a ""ton of people"" who want to migrate to this from std MAS. Does this mean 8 resellers who each weigh 250 lbs? He also admits it a market for clients where the IT people rule the sales process. Blech. Also says internally they are discussing adding mfg capabilities - no year. Whatever.

Internally I am talking about running for US President.

They did not fix the overall architecture of the MAS 200 application server, which is still used for MAS 200 SQL. So yes, the same issues that happen with the regular app server.

CYA time for anyone selling this as an upgrade to an existing user complaining about the standard capacity issues in MAS. Maybe that's one reason they're not hot to go after the installed base.

What do you mean by ""capacity issues""?

Standard MAS 200 has capacity limitations around the number of simultaneous users. Once you start to enter the ""death zone"" of about 20 to 30 users you'll have concurrent locking issues, users ghosting -- not to mention MAS 200 through our recent upgrade experience just flat out won't run as a service about about 20 users concurrent (ymmv). Someone purchasing MAS 200 SQL to solve those issues might (if what's reported is true and MAS 200 SQL has the same problems) have a very good legal case against a VAR who sold the upgrade as a cure for the disconnects. I for one wouldnt' want to be explaining this to an ""upgrade"" client.

The reality is most users want SQL for faster reporting. The DSD approach works beautifully for that requirement but the purist IT guys won't go for it with the native SQL option

Well we have a MAS 200 customer (ProvideX) that has 100 current users in. However they run as an app not service.

I believe the issue with running as an App is you have to stick that App into an auto-run and if someone comes along and shuts down the session your users are kicked off. The point being that MAS 200 is marketed to run as either an APP or Service and the reality is you cannot run it as a Service (reliably) with (pick a number) over say 20 users concurrently logged in or you'll have sever crashing that brings the system down repeatedly. Ultimately if this new SQL doesn't significantly increase speed and you haven't given an existing customer lots of caveats - be prepared to refund the money or be sued (or both). This seems like an unusually risky area.

I thought the service runs with manu users if you tweaked the registry. But the point remains, you have to tweak the registry.......

Doug is really tap dancing re this on our second day of class. A couple of resellers are REALLY pushing back re it not working as a service, esp for the SQL version.

Don't kill the messenger.............

Who is 'doug'?

The trainer.

OK, Dawn was right- those exams were EASY. At least when you're armed with your documentation and the Search feature. I even scored 100% on the SQL portion and I still feel like I don't know squat about SQL.

No one likes a braggart!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congrats Beth!

No one likes me bragging that I still don't know shit about SQL????? Wow, I better keep my mouthg shut about the other stuff I'm clueless about...

No. Jeff doesn't like you bragging that you don't know anything about SQL. The rest of us are very proud of you for knowing nothing about SQL. ;)

No, try as I might I always overthink those crappy test and stumble over the trick questions.......... But just like the CPA exam, an 80 is just as good as a 10.

Um, I don't think a 10 is a passing score. Just sayin'. :P

LOL - good catch, Robert. Jeff - trust me, on this one just search for each key phrase and every single one is right out of the doc. I truly had no idea what more than half the answers on the SQL portion were without looking (probably like 90%) and I just kept looking them up. The MAS SQL test was easier because SQL is basically 200. Like one of the questions was what would be the directoy of the files for company ABX, and yup, it's MAS_ABX just like 200. Really, the only diff with SQL is that your Utility menu is smaller because the only rebuild is sort files and your DFDM is done via the SQL tools outside MAS.

When I took the original MAS SQL class the test was open book, open note, open internet, open friend, and open instructor. Good ole MacDonald Consulting in Hotlanta.

To run MAS 200 as a service with sizable number of users registry tweak required as Jeff mentioned else you can only open a certain number of tasks before reaching a Windows heap size limit. This is true in the 3.x, 4.x, and 4.45+ - why? Even though MAS 200 is client/server it is multi-process app (not to be confused with multi-processor - here it means a separate instance of pvxwin32.exe spawned for every task) instead of multi-threaded (separate thread spawned for same instance of the .exe). That's why you see so many pvxwin32.exe's in the Task Manager on server. Way back when we duplicated this heap size issue by converting Notepad.exe to run as a service and saw we could only get 50 - 70 instances of it to run w/o the registry tweak. Back then I don't think ProvideX even supported multi-threading. But today to convert MAS to run multi-threaded so it is conducive to running as a service, the base classes would practically need to get rewritten. If it was going to ever happen 4.00 was the time. My point is for MAS 200 any version before, current or in future, just don't ever expect that because there's a new SQL version or combined CRM+SQL version or whatever we may see, that these base limitations will be overcome. One encouraging note is the Windows heap size limit is doubled on Server 2008 so you can get more MAS tasks to run as an app or service but still requires a (different) registry tweak.

Thanks for that Alnoor. Just goes to show, they aren't willing to bring this product truly into the 21st century. Does anybody know of any other shipping app that launches an application on the server for every client screen opened? Pathetic. Alnoor, why doesn't this affect large terminal/citrix servers (not mas200 related) where if you had 20 or 30 users each opening up 5 to 10 apps?

I don't mind the limitations so long as I know about them and can explain them to a client before installing the product. In the past (see Act!, eBusiness, SMI) there have been products where we perhaps recommend to a client and only become aware of material shortcomings AFTER they've been sold and we spend significant time on-site with the client. My problem here is that as the shortcomings become known then the client doesn't want to pay -- and we become the local unpaid complaint department for Sage and take a potentially huge financial hit. I've said this before --- I don't have any idea how the typical VAR survives without a group like 90 Minds to at least vet some of these add-ons and point out potential problems. If I can't get a recommendation from the group about an add-on I immediately inform the customer that they're adopting it at their own risk - and in all instances that has kept me out of the role of unpaid complaint department.

Can someone repost the instructions for tweaking the registry so that MAS can run a large number of users as a service? I thought I had saved the notes but can't locate anywhere. I very sure they were posted here (by alnoor or Jim), but damnned if I can find them.

This is a long one: Cannot create a new session with a large number of users Date: 7/22/2009 Product Line: MAS 200 Application: System Setup Application Level: All Number: SS3003-ABC The error message ""WindX client connection: Connection Timed Out waiting for your application to start"" occurs or a blank white screen displays when opening Sage MAS 200 tasks (for example: Sales Order Entry, Customer Inquiry, Invoice Data Entry, Purchase Order Entry). After this issue, Sage MAS 200 appears unresponsive. In addition, various error messages may occur at the server including ""Pvxwin32.exe DLL Initialization Error"". Windows 2000/2003/2008 may be limiting the number of processes that can run simultaneously. This issue occurs when a large number of users run Sage MAS 200 concurrently. By default, Windows 2000/2003/2008 systems are optimized for desktop applications over services. This means that more instances of a Windows program can opened as a desktop application than as a service. This issue surfaces frequently when the Sage MAS 200 Host is configured to run as a service and there are at least 50 to 75 pvxwin32.exe tasks running at the same time. If your system is optimized to run more instances of desktop applications over services (which is the default in Windows 2000/2003/2008), simply switching the Sage MAS 200 Host to run as a desktop application from a service will, in all likelihood, instantly allow you to open 125 to 300 concurrent pvxwin32.exe tasks. In most cases, this is all that is needed to resolve this issue. It is highly recommended you attempt this solution before attempting to edit the Windows registry as detailed later in this document. Switching the Sage MAS 200 Host from a Service to a Desktop Application Go to the Services applet, and stop the ""MAS90cs Host 10000"" service. If the Port ID in the description is a number other than 10000 make a note of the number. Change the service Startup type from ""Automatic"" to ""Manual"". This is the reverse of the process detailed in the ""Configuring the Service"" section of the Sage MAS 200 Installation Guides. Create a shortcut from ...\Mas90\Home\Host.exe to the desktop. Right-click Host.exe, point to ""Send To"", and then click ""Desktop (Create Shortcut)"". If the Port ID from step 1 was not 10000, modify the properties of the shortcut that's now located on the desktop. In the properties, add a space and the correct Port ID to the end of the ""Target Path"": Example 1: D:\Apps\Mas90\Home\Host.exe 9500 Example 2: ""C:\Program Files\Best\Mas90\Home\Host.exe"" 9999 Note: When the directory path contains spaces (for example: ""Program Files""), the entire path up to the file name must be quoted. A user account that is a member of the Administrators or Domain Administrators group must now always be logged on to the server, directly at the server, and then start the Host program. Sage MAS 200 for SQL requires that the original account running the Host service always be logged on the server's desktop. General Information on the Registry Modification The following section provides information on the registry modifications needed to allow a greater number of processes to run simultaneously in Windows 2000/2003/2008. This procedure is not recommended unless you must run the Host as a service or you are already running the Host as a desktop application and still need to increase the number of pvxwin32.exe tasks. Perform this procedure on the server where the Sage MAS 200 Host resides. Warning: Modifying the registry incorrectly may cause serious damage to your system and require reinstallation of the operating system. Sage cannot guarantee that you can solve problems that result from modifying the registry incorrectly. Prior to modifying the registry, perform a backup of the registry by creating an Emergency Repair Disk (ERD) and performing a full system backup or at least a backup of the Windows system state. This registry modification affects all programs that run on the server along with Sage MAS 200. Some applications will be incompatible with certain values entered for the registry edit. Specifically, Backup Exec and Windows Task Scheduler have proven to be incompatible with the maximum value of 8192 assigned to the services heap value. It is your responsibility to verify that all your desktop applications and services start and run correctly with the registry changes. Note: The process limitation issue can usually be corrected by modifying a value in a string located in the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\SubSystems\Windows This parameter may appear in one of the following forms: SharedSection=1024, 3072, 512 (Windows 2000 default) SharedSection=1024, 3072, 512,512 (Windows 2000/2003 with Terminal Services) SharedSection=1024,12288,768 (Server 2008 32-bit) SharedSection=1024,20480,768 (Server 2008 64-bit) Value one (1024) defines the maximum size of the Windows system-wide heap. Do not modify value one (1024). Value two (3072,12288 or 20480 respectively) defines the heap size for desktop applications. Value three (512,768 for Server 2008) defines the heap size for services. Value four (512) is the Terminal Services heap size (this value might not exist on all systems running Windows Terminal Services). Do not modify value four (512). Some applications will modify the third value so it does not inherit the second value. Sage does not recommend omitting the third value if it is present at the start of the edit. The first and the fourth values should not be modified. Registry Modification to run the Host as a Service Try the following setting if only two or three values exist: SharedSection=1024,3072,1536 Try the following setting if four values exist: SharedSection=1024,3072,1536,512 Note that the third value is changed from the default (from 512 to 1536) (Windows 2000/2003/2008). This is offered as a starting point for ""tuning"" the third value to an optimal setting compatible with all programs running on the server. After rebooting the server, view the System log and Application log in the Windows Event Viewer and look for any error messages, especially those of services failing to start. If some applications or services do not start up or run properly after editing the registry, try lowering the third value in 512k increments and rebooting the server until you find a combination that works with all your programs. If problems do not occur, and you still need more concurrent pvxwin32.exe tasks you can raise the third value by increments of 512k to a maximum value of 8192. The maximum value is not recommended. Veritas Backup Exec and Windows Task Scheduler and other programs and services are known to be incompatible with the maximum (8192) setting. It is also possible some programs and services will be incompatible or be adversely affected with a high setting less than 8192. As mentioned above, consider 512 as the starting point for ""tuning"" the third value to an optimal setting compatible with all programs running on the server. It is your responsibility to test and verify that all programs and services are functioning correctly after making the edit and rebooting the server. Note: If you are running Veritas Backup Exec and must run the Host as a service and cannot tune the third value optimally to be compatible with both applications, consider running Sage MAS 200 and Backup Exec on separate servers. The Backup Exec software will be loaded on one server and Backup Exec remote agent software will be loaded on the server running Sage MAS 200. Please consult Veritas or your hardware professional for more information. Sage Customer Support Services cannot provide assistance in this area. Registry Modification to run the Host on the desktop If you are running the Host on the desktop generally a registry modification is not required. However, if you are still running into the process limitation issue, consider the following: Try the following setting if only two or three values exist: SharedSection=1024,8192,512 Try the following setting if four values exist: SharedSection=1024,8192,512,512 Notes: Due to the default heap size for Windows Server 2008 has increased past the previous 8192 maximum. If change is required, follow the instructions are below and make changes in 512 increments following all the considerations and cautions in this article. Note that the second value is changed from the default of 3072 to 8192 (Windows 2000 and Windows 2003) and that the third value is set to 512. This is offered as a starting point for ""tuning"" the second value to an optimal setting compatible with all programs running on the server. View the System log and Application log in the Event Viewer after rebooting the server to look for error messages, especially those of services failing to start. Also look for visual error messages on the screen. Also verify that all of your applications that run on the server continue to run normally. Currently, there are no reports of applications or services that are incompatible with the second value set to the maximum 8192. If any applications or services do not start up or run properly as a result of changing the entry, the second value can be lowered in 512k increments. The valid range of vales for the 2nd number is between 3072 and 8192. It is your responsibility to test and verify that all programs and services are functioning correctly after making the edit and rebooting the server. Additional Information For more information on the values contained in this key, refer to the following Knowledge Base articles located on the Microsoft Web site. Please note that some of these articles recommend settings that are different than the settings contained in this article. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=http://support.microsoft.com:80/support/kb/articles/Q142/6/76.asp&NoWebContent=1 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;126962 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;158308

Thanks

De nada!