Sage 100

Just received the ""You owe us money"" spreadsheet from Sage for what I think are mostly Payroll commissions paid last year, that, according to the email should not have been paid. Does anyone else find it odd that a company can go back a year in time (From October 1, 2017) and issue an email saying ""We're sorry, but you owe us money, and we're going to either take the money from your credits on account, or simply issue a debit memo if you don't have any credits.""? It sends the message that Sage is truly desperate for revenue, and this is how they're attempting to make up some numbers for last year. So, not only did we NOT have any say in the clients moving to Payroll Subscription, we didn't have any control over what the commissions were. After taking our Payroll maintenance renewal money, and the ability to make money from sales of the Payroll module, now they're saying we were overpaid? After losing all of that income? Just when I thought Sage could not test our loyalty any more than they already have - they manage to do so.

Yes, I got the same email. However, check the statement carefully. The invoices listed on my statement were dated in May, June and August of 2017. I'm pretty sure those months are before Oct 2017. I have sent an email asking for clarification. Does anyone have a copy of the Partner Program that would have been in effect from 10/1/16 through 9/30/2017? I cannot locate it.

Welcome to the club!!!! Here is an earlier post on the same subject. I took it as a one off. Apparently not. Is anyone getting an email saying ""oops, we forgot to give commission credit""? https://90minds-com.socialcast.com/messages/39232171?ref=stream

@Brian.Kelly - you are absolutely right! They are from May, June, July and August on my spreadsheet - all 2017. Wow...over a year, and what would have been in Sage's previous fiscal year. OMG. What might happen with Sage dinging our accounts next year for THIS fiscal year? Dang! I'll see if I can't dig up the Partner Program from that timeframe...although I think Payroll had its own plan by then.

@Jeff.Schwenk - You've been drinking, haven't you? A commission CREDIT from Sage? Ha!

Oh, one more thing comes to mind. Any Sales Promos to migrate customers to the payroll subscription? I will try to find those too. I am almost certain Sage ran promos to get partners to get customers on the payroll subscription.

I got one today as well from July 2017. I asked them to send the tier info and all promos in effect at that time.

We received one too. From May to September 2017.

Just received ours, letter says due to an error from October 1, 2017 to July 11, 2018 but like others when I look at the detail it goes back to May of 2017. According to the report it looks like they originally gave us full product margin percentage on these sales and now they are adjusting it back to 30% which is the subscription margin. We'll have to go back and verify each one but that's what looks like is being done.

Yes, @BobKohlmeyer, I agree on your assessment. However, I have no idea what incentives Sage was offering partners at that time.

@SueBennett I say the craziest things, most are printable....

Surprising this was not mentioned at the last partner dog and pony show....

Imagine if at your next trip to the grocery store they said, ""oh, we'd been undercharging you for the Pringles during the summer. you owe us $14

One also wonders if perhaps their commission program is just a tad too complicated. Perpetual, Subscriptions, payroll, Winbacks, 2X credit for SFA sales. Merge with another partner, your customer tier level is frozen for two years. Have your customers submit ROR's to a new partner and suddenly you don't have any? We'll apply credit at the new partner's tier immediately. Buddy up with a master VAR and no problem, you can stay independent and get better tier. But only resellers we deem to be worthy of Master VAR status. The list goes on.

@Paul.Ziliak - Or, if we did that to a client? ""I'm sorry, Mr. Customer, we should have charged you $15.00 more per hour from May to October of 2017. Not to worry though, we'll just invoice you the difference, per the attached spreadsheet."" We would NEVER do that to our clients. Not ever. And I'm shocked that Sage is doing it to their customers - us.

What is Sage's claim? Are they saying computation/math error or something that people aren't entitled to due to tier level? Based on the number of people it seems like Sage made a math error on quite a few people.

Sage letter states, ""We recently uncovered and fixed an error in our system, which led to an overpayment in your commissions from October 1, 2017, through July 11, 2018. We apologize for this error and would appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

Yep - and it is signed by Stewart Davis, whose title is VP Sales Operation Management, Americas

I cannot believe what I am reading on this thread.... is it April Fool's or Halloween???? Incredible... makes me really think who we are doing business or ""partnering"" with.....maybe all those emails should be forwarded to the new top management....

@LourdesSobrino - Only to be placed in the same closet as Ericka's flip chart of partner ideas from 10 years ago....

I think @SueBennett 's point is most relevant. Would any of us go back, hat in hand, to our customers and ask for more money based on an accounting error on our part? Not that Sage is going hat in hand - it's more like ""too f--king bad, we are taking the money from you"". They really are not very classy people. Who's fault is it they spent tens of millions chasing some Salesforce cloud dream? Why do we partners and their long-time customers have to foot the bill for all their poor choices? Sorry to vent. I'll try to work in more snarky sarcasm and less pointed truths in my next rant.

Is this $$ material enough that it was worthwhile for Sage to send out these emails?

@WayneSchulz - none of us would do this for any amount of money. In my opinion, Sage would do it for a nickel. The big question in my mind is ... would they also do it to the customers? Or is it just partners that get treated shabbily?

@WayneSchulz - the good thing in our case (but also one that makes it incredibly annoying) is that ours is only $333. Which adds to @PeterWolf's point about how shabbily we're being treated - is it worth the damage they've done to themselves in the reseller community by sending out these ""You owe us money""? (Like they actually care, right?!) Not only do we make a mere pittance from Commissions on the mandatory Payroll subscription, but they want part of that pittance back. What kind of a company does that? Certainly not my view of what a ""Partner"" is.

Dammit! They are taking $422.50 back from me. Not fair! I agree with everything Sue, Paul and Peter have written regarding going back to collect on something that was deemed billed and closed. With the people Sage hired in Atlanta, I am actually surprised it is not a lot worse. From what I know about their wonderful systems at Sage, everything is manually calculated and manually adjusted, so I believe these commissions are the result of human error. It doesn't make it any better, but it sure scares the hell out of me that this is ONLY payroll. Are we going to receive a similar email regarding Sage 100c Subscriptions???

One more thing. If we change Sue's name to Mary, I would have been in agreement with Peter, Paul and Mary. Just sayin'

@BrianKelly - what a hoot! (Peter, Paul and Mary!) But I agree with you about the scary part - although the email says October 2017 through July 2018 - all of the detail shows as far back as April of 2017. So - total agreement with you - are they going back that far and getting more money from us for 100c Subscriptions? Is that next? They can't get the money from the clients - so they're just going to issue debit memos to their Resellers? Wow.

Mine was $180.

Well, I guess I win. Mine is about 20K. This was the last straw. Decided to join the Master Var program since i am truly sick and tired of dealing with a company like Sage. If this was any other product or any other service, we would have all left them a long time ago. Why do we keep doing business with these thieves. Sorry, a little frustrated.

@KennyDaniel - Holy Toledo! Seriously? Doesn't that HAVE to be a mistake?

@SueBennett no, not a mistake. I had several big 100c conversions and they claim I was not eligible. Nobody returns my calls or emails and there is no clear explanation. ""We made a mistake"" is all I get.

The frustrating part is that they don't tell you WHY it is incorrect, as in, ""We paid you XX% because you were at tier XXX but you weren't really at that tier."" Or, ""We had a promo for PR migrations but we know no one still has THAT documentation around so we changed our mind.

@ThereseLogeais exactly. I know for sure I was eligible because I'm always on the lowest tier and don't chase customers for renewals. I tell Sage to do it because there is nothing in for me. However when they said that all tiers are eligible, I truly worked hard on converting these customers. I don't have any documentation to prove that. Maybe I should bill them for my time.

It really stinks that we don't get to decide which invoices to pay each month. While I'm always happy to receive a check, it's kind of like having no say in the matter. So @KennyDaniel what are they going to do for your $20K?? What if you don't send them a check?

@ThereseLogeais Who knows, cant get anyone to respond The letter said they would take the monies from any credits that i have (which i don''t), and add a debit to my account for the balance. If there aren't enough credits they expect a payment. If I don't pay,...who knows what will happen. Cancel my account or possibly send a hit-man after me :) Thats what I get for dealing with thieves for the last 30 years. Yes, I was one of the first resellers to sign up with them as a CPA.

I asked Sage about this (they are at CIM cloud partner huddle) and didn't get much of a response other than an ""out of my hands"" type response.

Dear Sage: What is it your company does for a living? If a company that publishes accounting software can't invoice properly, why should anyone use their software?

@WayneShultz - I haven't been able to find anyone at Sage that we could talk to about these kinds of things for years. Or who can justify basis for them. Or who has any kind of common sense about them. @PhilMcIntosh - I love Sage 100 - I don't think this is a Sage 100 problem. However, I do think it is about a manufacturer who either sets policies like this, and/or hires people that make these kinds of decisions!

Maybe we should all join together, NOT pay them and send out a combined letter from our group? Power in numbers? Who knows, Sage hasn't shown a lot of mercy in the 28 years I've worked with them so it might not do any good however if they hear from enough of us, they might do something? It is always so frustrating as to why they punish the wrong ones however their greed has led their way for many years now and not only myself but my clients are getting fed up with it.

@KathyPurkiss I like the way you think. I would definitely sign that letter, along with my attorney. I'm seriously considering legal action. It just doesn't seem right that they can come back a year later and say we made a mistake, you owe us 20K And we won't even take the time to explain why.

@KennyDaniel who are you going to partner up with? I've been very fearful of this for many years because of some of the nightmare stories I've heard. I've been approached several times over the years and the deals sound great until you read the fine print.

@KathyPurkiss I've been approached by SWK and Net@work. Had several calls and meetings. Leaning towards SWK. I'm also talking to a local, larger reseller I occasionally work with when things are over my head. The problem with that is I have to do an ROR with them and have to wait a year or two until my customers get on their tier and earn any kind of commissions. The Master Var does not require an ROR and commissions are immediate. What kind of experiences have you had or heard of that I should beware of?

@KennyDaniel What I was offered was that I would get to keep my existing clients and keep the applicable margins however I would have to do a ROR for all of my clients. The writing also stated that once the ROR is signed, these are now their clients and they have full rights to market them and help them with any needs (without consulting me). The agreement was also limited so once the time of the contract was up, I was out! I don't remember all of the details as it has been a while however when I was done, I didn't have any warm fuzzies from it and decided to wait. The only advice I can give you or anyone is to read the fine print...how long is the deal, what is your rights verses theirs, etc.

Wow, that's not what I was told at all. Are you referring to the Master Var program or just doing an ROR? The Master Var is kind of a new program and is only being offered by the 4 or 5 largest resellers

It's three, I believe - SWK, Net@Work and Blytheco.

@KathyPurkiss - Come to MOTM 2019 meet the Sage folks in person. Don't hold back!!

The Master VAR program is currently only a pilot program, and its future depends solely on how successful it has been for Sage. The high pressure sales the big 3 are doing, I believe, is primarily because they have not been successful in signing up enough resellers to justify the resources they put into it. That means there has probably not been enough increase in sales for Sage either. We don't know yet the results of FYE - maybe better than the previous year for Sage, but if they are trying to get money back from the channel, I doubt it is going to be stellar. And now Steven Hare is interim CEO at Sage. I don't want to insult any accountants in the group, who I respect, but when is the last time you remember a significant company (Dow 30 or FTSE 100 - like Sage) that has been successful or grown under the helm of a CPA or Chartered Accountant? I think Steven is ready to return to cost cutting and basic blocking and tackling, which is not good for the channel or the growth of the company. Programs like the Master VAR will just go away or else they will dictate that everyone has to be under the top 20. My recommendation for everyone is to sit tight and wait to see what will happen starting in January, which actually won't get announced until mid-February just like promos and fixing tier!

I already commented on the Steven Hare lock-in and what I think that means. I would agree with you - it's going to be cutting down to the bone time - with an axe and not a scalpel. Good luck to us all.

For anyone facing the request for money back - I think your best hope is to find something. In writing contradicting Sage's position. Absent that Sage is going to get their money. It's a symptom of an overly complex tier system which nobody understands or can easily verify $ for.

I would press them for an explanation, they can't arbitrarily take money without providing the basis on which they are doing it - that's not legal. Considering they track tier on a spreadsheet and have subscription credit cards expiring and don't follow up with the customers you can't be certain they didn't screw something up on this too.

Update - response from Sage (Roda James): ""Subscription renewals pay 30% margin to partners with a tier level of Silver or above. Unfortunately, we discovered a system issue that issued a higher margin on some subscription renewals and add on sales in year 2 or beyond. The renewal over payments were primarily Payroll. The over payment issue was corrected on July 11th, so commissions are no longer being over paid for renewals as of that date. It was discovered in the 4th quarter, and it took a period of time to audit the details for complete accuracy and calculate the overpayments. This was a system issue and it has been corrected across the board."" By July 11th, he means 7/11/2018 (this year). I have confirmed that our commissions were, in fact, calculated incorrectly since the four customers on the report he sent me were year 2 renewals, and those renewals were calculated at a margin higher than 30%. I am still waiting for his response to my question about these renewals being before the October 2017 thru July 2018 time period. I'm guessing he is waiting for someone at Sage to edit the letter to determine exactly when (what date) the first year 2 renewal for payroll happened in order to justify my report and perhaps go after more renewals.

Received a mid-month statement - odd - with the ""Tier Overpayment"" included. I NEVER received the DM and I DID email them requesting further info. I replied, ""DO NOT TAKE THE OVERPAYMENT ADJUSTMENT UNTIL I RECEIVE MORE DETAIL!!!!!!