General Consultant Discussion

​​Does anyone have any experience with E2 Manufacturing? I have a manufacturing client that uses Sage WO, Scanco, WOEP but have also been using JobBoss for the metal fabrication part of their business. They were finally ready to switch over to Sage for the metal fab when this new warehouse person proposed E2. It's apparently cheap and SQL and can be implemented instantaneously. All I can tell is that it integrates with QuickBooks (arg). Unless I can convince the client that E2 won't work I'll be looking at integrating it with Sage. So I'm hoping someone has heard of it, dealt with it, maybe even knows why it won't work with Sage, anything!  Thank you!

E2 Manufacturing System - Shoptech The E2 Shop System

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Kate Krueger
Business Applications Manager
Eide Bailly, Inc.
Denver CO
970-692-5113
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I ran into them a few years ago. As I recall, they had problems with accounting integration and they worked ok if the nature of the job shop was along their lines. Look them up at the G2dotcom crowdsourced feedback site. The complaints seem consistent, especially about customization and limited reporting. 

Of course, anytime a vendor says, "It's apparently cheap and SQL and can be implemented instantaneously," this is a true claim ... 

Your customer has internal issues. That the fab shop has been operating independently is a huge flag. What problem is that shop trying to solve that they "are now ready to switch over?" This is a NEW person suggesting this, probably trying to make a mark. 

I'd aim first at the controller to make sure they know that they will NOT get the integration, especially inventory use and planning, that they have now. The see if you get CEO/Controller to agree to some search criteria. Engage the fab/whse staff in the evaluations.  You should be able to sell the Controller on a small analysis project to do this, since the potential chaos of a slapped-together fab solution will be pretty expensive. 

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Jerry Norman
Smartbridge Partners
Austin TX
512.419.1444 x112
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You had me at "can be implemented instantaneously"!!

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Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990
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​The red flag for me was they are listening to their warehouse guy.
They need to do a proper analysis based on their requirements.

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John Hoyt
john.hoyt@formingsolutions.com
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2019 12:07
From: Wayne Schulz
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

You had me at "can be implemented instantaneously"!!

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Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990
------------------------------

​Thanks everyone. The sad part is that they did pay for an evaluation engagement after which we said "switch the fab shop to Sage" and they said "great" and then this warehouse individual showed up and now they are going with E2. We've seen it before but it always amazes me how one person can completely derail a project. The client has bought the employee's claims that they can git the ground running with no training and E2 will solve all the world's problems. For his sake I hope he is right! I will do my best to integrate the systems and then in a year when they decide they really do need to go with Sage I will be kind and not total up all the money they have wasted...maybe...

------------------------------
Kate Krueger
Business Applications Manager
Eide Bailly, Inc.
Denver CO
970-692-5113
------------------------------

This is an example of the customer behavior that set me off on my "recovering engineer" journey 15 years ago. Rational decision making is hard for individuals, and it turns out to be even harder for organizations. A useful underpinning for different thinking about this is "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by David Kahneman. He is an excellent writer. It is one of 3 non-fiction books I recommend to everybody. (The others are "The Signal and the Noise" and "Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error.")

From the outside looking in on this, I'm going to guess that there are elements of urgency and fear over this need that the consultants doing the analysis didn't factor in. It likely is shared by the President/CEO which is why the Controller couldn't leaven the decision. Given what we strongly suspect about E2, there will be fingerpointing when accounting can't get the numbers it wants and purchasing/inventory gets squirrely. In my experience, the decision puts in motion events that will more likely than not result in you eventually losing the entire account.

If this customer is worth your effort to try to keep, you should perform an internal, Eide Bailly account review. Review what you do and don't know about the decision makers and their views of current performance and expectations/needs to meet their business goals. How is it that this need for mfg mgt got so immediate that they didn't even discuss the result of the paid analysis with the vendor (you)? Figure out who your allies are there (hopefully Finance) and work out a development plan with them to ensure that they know you are doing all that is technically possible to make this work. 

Be sure to sketch out a project plan for YOUR integration effort on this. Define the phases you know will be needed and a stab at what you will need from E2. You should also define how you will work with E2, especially regarding development and testing cycles and when something is "accepted." I emphasize that this initial document should appear as an outline of "expectations and options;" it should present 3 options for performing the work. The options are defined mainly in your responsiveness, windows for E2 responsiveness, who does testing, etc. (The lowest level is where E2 provides the integration scripts - they claim to already have Sage integration - and you do nothing more than install. Fixing problems at that level becomes much more expensive after the fact than if you are engaged initially to produce it.)

Finally, I suspect that the assessment your firm produced did not spend much time on non-JobOps alternatives. I'll bet it didn't offer 3 approaches to solving the integration problem, focusing on the emotional concerns the organization apparently has: speed, downtime, dollar cost. I can't overstate how amazing the customer reactions are when they have 3 options to puzzle through rather than a single binary one.

------------------------------
Jerry Norman
Smartbridge Partners
Austin TX
512.419.1444 x112
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2019 11:11
From: Kate Krueger
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

​Thanks everyone. The sad part is that they did pay for an evaluation engagement after which we said "switch the fab shop to Sage" and they said "great" and then this warehouse individual showed up and now they are going with E2. We've seen it before but it always amazes me how one person can completely derail a project. The client has bought the employee's claims that they can git the ground running with no training and E2 will solve all the world's problems. For his sake I hope he is right! I will do my best to integrate the systems and then in a year when they decide they really do need to go with Sage I will be kind and not total up all the money they have wasted...maybe...

------------------------------
Kate Krueger
Business Applications Manager
Eide Bailly, Inc.
Denver CO
970-692-5113
------------------------------

@Kate Krueger look at this as a bigger project. So long as you adequately document your recommendation in some type of written report - you will make money on both projects.

I had this happen to me many years ago when a former customer went out and purchased $1 million of POS terminals for their retails stores.

They sat me down and told me how the people who sold the POS promised seamless integration with Sage ( stop me if you've heard this one before ).

I said - probably not happening. Let me tell you what I think you're going to get. I spelled it out in writing.

I made money both working with them on their ( failed ) integration and after-the-fact on another POS that did work.​

Oh, quick tip, do not let the customer run up AR on the project because if their self-guided project tanks you do not want to be seen as the unpaid complaint department. This is my top requirement - I get paid current on these projects or I walk away. Do not let the customer build up enough AR so that they hold it over your head. If I fixed price it ( which I would ) I only do phases, not a WAG of what the entire process will be.

------------------------------
Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2019 11:11
From: Kate Krueger
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

​Thanks everyone. The sad part is that they did pay for an evaluation engagement after which we said "switch the fab shop to Sage" and they said "great" and then this warehouse individual showed up and now they are going with E2. We've seen it before but it always amazes me how one person can completely derail a project. The client has bought the employee's claims that they can git the ground running with no training and E2 will solve all the world's problems. For his sake I hope he is right! I will do my best to integrate the systems and then in a year when they decide they really do need to go with Sage I will be kind and not total up all the money they have wasted...maybe...

------------------------------
Kate Krueger
Business Applications Manager
Eide Bailly, Inc.
Denver CO
970-692-5113
------------------------------

Wayne puts it more succinctly than I did. His description is how I would do it, but always with 3 fixed-price, prepaid options somehow built in. 

I don't know how fiercely Eide Bailly executes fixed-price work, but this is definitely a situation to use it. 

1. A fixed price for the production of your side of the integration project. Meetings, phone calls, study of E2 documentation resulting in a written set of 3 options for your work. The 3 options for the project plan would be based on not just the initial meeting but your responsiveness (faster is more $$) and the number of reviews/calls, with incidents beyond the agreed to amount costing a predefined fee (at least $150 ea). As you know, ~1/3 of the effort in any successful project goes into the setup and PM. Charge for this plan with that in mind.

2. If you can produce an acceptable price for the entire project (non-hours-based, and with clear guard rails), then great. But unless you do this a lot, you probably can't. So Wayne's point about working in phases is very, very relevant. Make the least expensive option's price appear as competitive as possible, even though you shift most of the work burden onto the customer, leaving only the most tech parts for you. 

3. Prepaid. Always. They know you produce; it is not a trust problem.

4. We haven't been explicit here, but this is all about insisting that the customer respect you. You want to ensure that whenever a related question, process, or requirement comes up in conversation between E2 and customer that YOUR requirements are considered. Otherwise, you are seen as trivial or magical. Of course, the really, really hard part to accomplishing this is also communicating your cooperative collaboration mindset to the customer. I have learned the hard way that many phone calls with your project contact and his/her boss is necessary to communicate this; email will eventually piss off somebody. Email should be only for confirmation and documentation.


------------------------------
Jerry Norman
Smartbridge Partners
Austin TX
512.419.1444 x112
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-25-2019 10:49
From: Wayne Schulz
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

@Kate Krueger look at this as a bigger project. So long as you adequately document your recommendation in some type of written report - you will make money on both projects.

I had this happen to me many years ago when a former customer went out and purchased $1 million of POS terminals for their retails stores.

They sat me down and told me how the people who sold the POS promised seamless integration with Sage ( stop me if you've heard this one before ).

I said - probably not happening. Let me tell you what I think you're going to get. I spelled it out in writing.

I made money both working with them on their ( failed ) integration and after-the-fact on another POS that did work.​

Oh, quick tip, do not let the customer run up AR on the project because if their self-guided project tanks you do not want to be seen as the unpaid complaint department. This is my top requirement - I get paid current on these projects or I walk away. Do not let the customer build up enough AR so that they hold it over your head. If I fixed price it ( which I would ) I only do phases, not a WAG of what the entire process will be.

------------------------------
Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2019 11:11
From: Kate Krueger
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

​Thanks everyone. The sad part is that they did pay for an evaluation engagement after which we said "switch the fab shop to Sage" and they said "great" and then this warehouse individual showed up and now they are going with E2. We've seen it before but it always amazes me how one person can completely derail a project. The client has bought the employee's claims that they can git the ground running with no training and E2 will solve all the world's problems. For his sake I hope he is right! I will do my best to integrate the systems and then in a year when they decide they really do need to go with Sage I will be kind and not total up all the money they have wasted...maybe...

------------------------------
Kate Krueger
Business Applications Manager
Eide Bailly, Inc.
Denver CO
970-692-5113

@Kate Krueger - we have run into E2 a few times.  I can tell you that if it fits well, and it has some pretty good features and functionality, the next hurdle will be if they throw away Sage completely and implement the fairly new accounting features or integrate it with QB.  Best of luck!

------------------------------
Brian Kelly
President and Head Cheerleader
Accounting Systems, Inc. (ASI)
Columbia SC
803-252-6154 x210
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-25-2019 11:40
From: Jerry Norman
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

Wayne puts it more succinctly than I did. His description is how I would do it, but always with 3 fixed-price, prepaid options somehow built in.

I don't know how fiercely Eide Bailly executes fixed-price work, but this is definitely a situation to use it.

1. A fixed price for the production of your side of the integration project. Meetings, phone calls, study of E2 documentation resulting in a written set of 3 options for your work. The 3 options for the project plan would be based on not just the initial meeting but your responsiveness (faster is more $$) and the number of reviews/calls, with incidents beyond the agreed to amount costing a predefined fee (at least $150 ea). As you know, ~1/3 of the effort in any successful project goes into the setup and PM. Charge for this plan with that in mind.

2. If you can produce an acceptable price for the entire project (non-hours-based, and with clear guard rails), then great. But unless you do this a lot, you probably can't. So Wayne's point about working in phases is very, very relevant. Make the least expensive option's price appear as competitive as possible, even though you shift most of the work burden onto the customer, leaving only the most tech parts for you.

3. Prepaid. Always. They know you produce; it is not a trust problem.

4. We haven't been explicit here, but this is all about insisting that the customer respect you. You want to ensure that whenever a related question, process, or requirement comes up in conversation between E2 and customer that YOUR requirements are considered. Otherwise, you are seen as trivial or magical. Of course, the really, really hard part to accomplishing this is also communicating your cooperative collaboration mindset to the customer. I have learned the hard way that many phone calls with your project contact and his/her boss is necessary to communicate this; email will eventually piss off somebody. Email should be only for confirmation and documentation.


------------------------------
Jerry Norman
Smartbridge Partners
Austin TX
512.419.1444 x112
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 04-25-2019 10:49
From: Wayne Schulz
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

@Kate Krueger look at this as a bigger project. So long as you adequately document your recommendation in some type of written report - you will make money on both projects.

I had this happen to me many years ago when a former customer went out and purchased $1 million of POS terminals for their retails stores.

They sat me down and told me how the people who sold the POS promised seamless integration with Sage ( stop me if you've heard this one before ).

I said - probably not happening. Let me tell you what I think you're going to get. I spelled it out in writing.

I made money both working with them on their ( failed ) integration and after-the-fact on another POS that did work.​

Oh, quick tip, do not let the customer run up AR on the project because if their self-guided project tanks you do not want to be seen as the unpaid complaint department. This is my top requirement - I get paid current on these projects or I walk away. Do not let the customer build up enough AR so that they hold it over your head. If I fixed price it ( which I would ) I only do phases, not a WAG of what the entire process will be.

------------------------------
Wayne Schulz - Schulz Consulting - 860-516-8990


Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2019 11:11
From: Kate Krueger
Subject: E2 Manufacturing?

​Thanks everyone. The sad part is that they did pay for an evaluation engagement after which we said "switch the fab shop to Sage" and they said "great" and then this warehouse individual showed up and now they are going with E2. We've seen it before but it always amazes me how one person can completely derail a project. The client has bought the employee's claims that they can git the ground running with no training and E2 will solve all the world's problems. For his sake I hope he is right! I will do my best to integrate the systems and then in a year when they decide they really do need to go with Sage I will be kind and not total up all the money they have wasted...maybe...

------------------------------
Kate Krueger
Business Applications Manager
Eide Bailly, Inc.
Denver CO
970-692-5113